Could any of you dressage buffs explain exactly what Rollkur is for the uninitiated?
Have read that Sylvia Loch is very against it, so does it have a place in classical training?
I'm not clear whether it is a piece of equipment or a technique or what.
Hilary

Here is a link to one of the dressage threads.....did you see it popped up at the bottom of your thread??? very clever!! i don't know what it is i remember reading this and thinkin huh???? so i hope you figure out what it is!!! i dont really follow dressage can you tell???

http://www.equineonline.net/horsefor...ead.php?t=4316

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Well, I knew I liked you lot as soon as I joined this forum, and reading the comments in that thread made me cheer! Best wishes, Sue

I also think Rollkur is ghastly & abusive (I ride dressage). I would never practice it, & am so very disappointed in the "big names" who do, i.e. Anky, etc. I subscribe to an American dressage magazine, Dressage Today, & have seen the controversy covered several times. I remember once there was a good article by a respected, classical trainer (can't, for the life of me, remember WHO it was!) who said the relaxed, "through" horse should move with his head just a wee bit IN FRONT of the vertical.

Those poor horses - what a sad existence for some of these Grand Prix mounts. Alas, money & ego, that's the real problem.

Rochelle

Thanks Mel for the link. Sorry, didn't realize it had been discussed so recently - just before my time on the forum.
Think I've understood what it is now, sounds horrible. One question - do the riders practising this technique use a particularly harsh bit? I would have thought many horses could just resist being pulled into that position otherwise. Couldn't they just stick their noses up to avoid the pull? - they're a lot stronger than we are.
Hilary

Hilary wrote: Couldn't they just stick their noses up to avoid the pull? - they're a lot stronger than we are.

If you think of the anatomy of a horses neck you can see that once behind the perpendicular the leverage of the bit totally prevents the horse getting its head forward and up to evade the action....added to the fact that with a bit in its mouth it is acting on the horses softest most vulnerable point, otherwise centuries of horsemanship, acheiving submission via the sympathetic use of any bit would be null. A horse can only evade a bit if he can get his tongue over it or if his mouth has become so hardened by ill use that it is no longer sensitive to its use.....or in a state of blind panic of course ;-}

Hilary, the riders that practice rollkur (or hyper flexion as they like to call it) tend to use draw reins or some other system of 'holding' rein when training but at competitions they only use it to warm up and then they will rely on the curb action of the double bridle to keep them down and under. Horses are, as you say, very strong and I believe that there are some horses who would react when 'forced' into a position like this. My andi boys are not able to cope with that kind of pressure but some warmbloods seem to just 'cope' whatever. It does need some sort of strength or gadget to achieve that ammount of 'overbend', it would be hard to achieve in say a snaffle however strong you are. You would be amazed Hilary, at what evil gadgets and techniques can be found still in use today and all in the name of winning, so sad.
Would have to disagree with Margaux that they can only evade the bit by getting the tongue over or being hardened to it's use but she meant it in the context of this specific discussion. In my opinion horses evade the bit by other means too such as coming behind the contact and 'curling up' and this is what often happens with rk and why it doesn't look good as the horse isn't actually on any kind of correct contact.

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Trudi wrote: Would have to disagree with Margaux that they can only evade the bit by getting the tongue over or being hardened to it's use but she meant it in the context of this specific discussion.

Well yes, I was talking generally and perhaps "evade" has other meanings, but I bow to your higher experience as dressage is not my specialist subject....
Training young horses is, and in my experience, correctly educated and sypathetically schooled horses are rarely 'evasive' except for the reasons I mentioned.
The Rollkur to me shows a horse willing to go as far as his rider requests regardless of his own discomfort, in order to please that rider and is therefore neither sympathetic nor necessary to demonstrate the 'harmony' which is and always should be, the perfect dressage test.

I am not any kind of specialist Margaux, just like you I'm trying to do the best by the horses that I come into contact with. I have and will continue to make mistakes and don't they just humble us every time!
However, the road to correct and sympathetical schooling is littered with evasion. I've yet to train a young horse that doesn't try to 'avoid' using it's rear end at some point but then they have young, unbalanced bodies. With gentle but firm guidance they can work through this to become beautifully in equilibrium through all the movements required for dressage.

As everyone on here knows, I am TOTALLY against rollkur but neither have I competed at Grand Prix (training/riding the movements at home is just not the same) and so I have no idea of the kind of pressure these guys put on themselves. I do know that back in the days when I did compete there were rarely times that my horses didn't feel tense and tight at a show, seems an alien environment to show harmony, so my boots will stay firmly in the tackroom without a doubt.

I liked your first reply but it must have got munched by the gremlins.
Yours, Trudi

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I appear to have set you on the defensive a little Trudi.
I assure you this is not my intention, particularly as we appear to agree in principle about the subject. The query I tried to answer fro Hilary related only to bit pressure and whether or not a horse could "evade" such bit pressure, I appear to have both bungled the reply and inadvertantly caused offense.
Forgive me I'll "but out" now.

M x